Brainbeardia Vulgaris
Brainbeardia Vulgaris

The Biochemical Adventures Of A Passionate Pill-Popper

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

SMTWTFS
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28

Search My Blog


0 user(s) viewing
0 guest(s)
0 member(s)
0 anonymous member(s)

entry Fri 2 October 2009 3:55:39 GMT +0000
I've entered the daytime treatment at the University Medical Centre of Groningen. I was very resistant at first, but now I'm getting the hang of it. The therapists are actually pretty good. The co-patients are nice. I like being part of a group; hanging out with people and having good conversations.

I've had an appointment with a p-doc and a doc-assistant. The p-doc was the guy in charge of the Anxiety & Compulsion department. He was a very friendly man. The doc-assistant was a sharp eyed woman whose look became more and more stern as I revealed the myriads of meds I've been trying, mostly on my lonely own.

I chose for complete honesty. It was a decision I made spontaneously in the beginning of our conversation, though several events had paved the way for it.

Indeed, their stance towards medications is that they prefer, ideally, to have a patient try cognitive behavioral therapy with exposure therapy first - without meds, and see how far he/she gets, and only then, if medication is still necessary, look at pharmacotherapy. The idea is that meds that help with anxiety undermine what exposure is all about: dealing with anxiety upfront, and learning to walk without crutches, so to speak. Nevertheless, they don't urge you to quit any medication right away; they are aware that quitting meds can cause withdrawal syndromes and that this should happen when someone is ready for it. So, in practice, they have people continue some of their meds, while urging them to taper off others.

Another stance that they have towards meds is that they think any med prescription should be 'evidence based', which means that they don't support off-label prescriptions. They only support prescribing a drug for the conditions for which it has been approved. They think this is the only truly scientific way of going about it.

I strongly disagree! The indications for which a med gets approved are often not based on sound science, but on the guesses of the pharmaceutical company that markets the med. A pharmaceutical company will try to market a drug for a certain condition and might not be interested to fund research after other applications. Moreover, at the time a drug gets approved, there is often very little known about its precise working mechanisms. In time, the knowledge about a drugs specific modes of action will grow, and these new discoveries may point to other applications than that for which the drug had first been approved. Then there are the many drugs who have run out of patent, and don't have million dollar companies behind them to further explore their possibilities.

The way I see it, only prescribing meds according to protocols means not looking at what a drug actually does, but only looking at what it has been approved for. This is not true science - this is submission to statistics! Submitting sound thinking to the power of the number - a power that has many stronger powers behind it and is influenced by these in very subjective ways.

I think one of the reasons why Dr. Stephen Stahl is such a brilliant psychiatrist is precisely because he doesn't just look at the numbers, but looks at what a drug actually does in the brain and in the body.

An example of the tension between true science and the subjective game of drug approvals is the fact that fluvoxamine, i.e. Luvox, has only been approved for OCD in the United States, but not for depression. Luvox though is an SSRI like any other, and can therefore be an effective antidepressant as well as an effective treatment for OCD. In most countries, Luvox is approved for both conditions. Would this mean that Luvox would help Dutch patients with depression, but can help Americans only with OCD? That is pure nonsense, of course.

Luvox can serve as a further illustration of my point. Years after Luvox had been approved for depression and(/or..) OCD, it has been discovered that the drug is a potent sigma-1 agonist. Sigma-1 receptors play a role in depression and anxiety, but also in delusions. One study explored the latter possibility and gave 300mg of Luvox to a group of patients with schizophrenia for an extended period of time. This high dose of Luvox appeared to be very effective for schizophrenia. But it's only one study; the drug is off patent, so there is no money to confirm these results with further research - Luvox' possible use as an antipsychotic med will probably never be exploited. And why not? Because people - meaning healthcare professionals! - don't look at what a drug actually does, but only look at the label.

The psychiatrist of the treatment centre wasn't too happy about most of the meds I take. The Zoloft (sertraline) was alright, since it has been approved for OCD.. I could continue taking it until I was ready to taper it down. The Buspar made them frown, since it has only been approved for General Anxiety Disorder, not for OCD.. The fact that it helps me is apparently not relevant! The Neurontin (gabapentine) puzzled them evn more. Is it the right med for the type of pain I have? The fact that even in small amounts it helps me tremendously with anxiety, is of no importance, since it hasn't been approved for anxiety disorders! Also, my TCA's didn't make them very merry. Later, when I thought about it, I figured I could have them support my amitriptyline (Elavil), since it has officially been approved for chronic pain.. Of course, amitriptyline would also help me with depression and anxiety. But that would be a counter-argument, since they don't want my meds to make my life too comfortable!

I hope you can see how debatable and far removed from real life their position is.

For now, they leave the pharmacotherapeutical responsiblity with my f-doc, with whom they want to discuss my medical regimen.

As for me, I know I am obsessed with meds, and I know my way of experimenting with meds is rather capricious. Still, I have great difficulty to submit to a professional view that is not mine and that I am very critical of.

I am still interested in 5HT2A/C-antagonism, of which I have talked here (and elsewhere) before. Servier's new drug agomelatine (Valdoxan) is a 5HT2C-antagonist, but only a rather weak one, it seems. Prozac is a pretty potent 5HT2C-antagonist, and I'm thinking of returning to low dose Prozac for this reason. Cyproheptadine, an old antihistaminergic drug, has my interest because it's a potent 5HT2A-antagonist and also a moderately strong 5HT2C-antagonist. Unlike amitriptyline, which is a much stronger antihistaminergic than a 5HT2A/C-antagonist, cyproheptadine's 5HT2A-antagonism is about as strong as its antihistaminergic properties.

I'm still taking amitriptyline (Elavil), and have upped my dose to 25mg, and more recently (yesterday) to 37.5mg. Amitriptyline offers both 5HT2A and -C antagonism (or -C partial agonism). It's too bad that it's such a strong antihistaminergic. I have noticed though that when I go up slowly, I quickly develop tolerance for the antihistaminergic sedation.

The Neurontin (gabapentin), as stated above, helps very well with anxiety. I have noticed no pain relief from it yet, though, and sometimes I even suspect it might paradoxically make my pain worse. I think I need to go to a higher dose to have a better idea of what it's doing.

I have now tried Valium (diazepam) three times, and boy, I love it. It's much less sedating than Ativan (lorazepam); it leaves my cognitive abilities mostly intact; it doesn't even seem to impair my memory (hardly any retrograde amnesia); and it gives me an antidepressant and anxiety-defeating boost. 'Mother's little helper' - indeed. Daddy likes it too.

But well, at the treatment centre - you may have guessed it - they're not too fond of benzo's.. No way they're gonna prescribe that, unless you're hooked already, in which case they're gonna make a plan for you to taper off. Hm, I've been honest, so I told them I have no physical dependence on benzo's..

Perhaps taking Valium daily for a prolonged period of time isn't a good idea anyway. Some people on some forums swear that long-term use of Valium will eventually make you more depressed. Anybody any comment on that? I should ask on the benzo board, I guess..

As for modafinil (Provigil), selegiline, amisulpride, piribedil.. I have only a couple of pills left. And I have no income at the moment. I'm parasitizing on my wife. Plus at the treatment centre, they want me to leave those drugs. Hm.

Well, that's all for now, folks. Feel free to ask any questions and give any feedback. Be gentle.. wink.gif

« Next Oldest · Brainbeardia Vulgaris · Next Newest »

Comments

post Fri 2 October 2009 11:20:13 GMT +0000
Comment #1


Amateur Psychopharmacologist
**

Group: Members
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat 5 April 2008
From: mass
Member No.: 1,298
Diagnoses:depression, generalized anxiety, social anxiety, fibromyalgia, insomnia
Current Meds:SERO 25mg-50mg, GBP 300mg, HCTZ 25mg, LEX 10mg, ARTANE 2-4mg PRN, TRAZ 50mgPRN, fish oil



I def agree with you on disagreeing with their offlabel drug position. many drugs have been used on me, that have been used offlabel, that were successful, and many drugs that have been made used specifically for the diagnosis I have, but tended not to work.

I'm still looking for a drug that can help with my med related akathesia, or restlessness. I never was really that restless until I started medication. and now i have dropped many a drug because of this restlessness, it started when i was on zyprexa combined with lexapro. and continued on to seroquel, and eventually abilify, which made me go crazy restless for about 3 weeks. the only med that seems to help with it is the gabapentin-which has given me side effects(weight gain) from which i discontinued the drug for. and the other drug artane has helped but it also has weird side effects, especially when i discontinue the drug after using it successfully for a few days.

yeah my aunt frowns upon my buspar and gabapentin taking too. sometimes i think wouldnt it be better to not be on an SSRI, and be dependent on benzos for my anxiety, since ssris numb you for a longer period of time anyways.

dont they realize that anxiety is tied into depression, so that you should be able to use the buspar-even though many deem the drug ineffective. but since it is deemed ineffective they should probably let you use it for anxiety, since if it doesnt work, youll still have anxiety.

yeah i would like the answer to the valium question too, since whenever i take it, i liked it, and ativan sucks, so does klonopin.


--------------------
dx: migraine headaches, depression, shitty insomnia. throat tightness, angina, panic, general social anxiety, eustachian tube dysfunction, fibromyalgia

seroquel and inderal 60mgSA made me fatigued/ depressed.

inderal interacts with ssris and anti-psychs.

success HCTZ not only lowers my blood pressure and pulse more effectively. but it also has helped with the headaches ive been having. i should see a doctor about this.

rx: gabapentin 300 mg, klonopin .5-1 prn, seroquel 25 mg-50mg, omega 3 fish oil, vitamin D. lexapro 10 mg,
HCTZ 25 mg(fluid buildup)



artane 2 mg PRN(rare), trazodone 50mg PRN,

lyrica 150 mg, topamax 25 mg

*new blog update(dec 30th)*
Go to the top of the page
post Fri 2 October 2009 12:30:18 GMT +0000
Comment #2


DIY Trepanist
*

Group: Members
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed 9 July 2008
From: northeast u.s.
Member No.: 1,681
Diagnoses:anxiety, depression, ocd
Current Meds:cymbalta, diazepam, lamictal, seroquel...in flux a.t.m.



Hey, good to see you. I would not be able to tolerate those types of rules/restrictions. Sort of counterproductive of them to be so rigid, imho. It would be difficult for me to put up with what you're going through there.

Your dr. bob post/thread was excellent. I like that website, but it is not the easiest to navigate. You made mention of not being too fond of cymbalta. May i ask why? Was it simply the cymbalta/geodon combo, or is there another reason for your dislike? I know the price is obscene.

How are you faring on the zoloft? Is it keeping the depression/ocd at bay at your dose? You talk quite a bit about prozac in dr. bob's post also; having some interesting pharmacodynamics. Do you prefer one med over the other? Does one need to get to the higher doses of zoloft to get any dopamine reuptake inhibition or does that begin at the low doses too?

May i ask why you stopped the risperdal .5 mg if it was giving you a pro-dopamine boost? I hope you are doing well, my friend......in spite of the shackles you now are forced to wear...

P.S.... is the nortriptyline giving you a good night sleep?

Can you believe that guy who had his pdoc give him geodon for adhd????.........is it me or is that a bit out of the ordinary?

This post has been edited by bengaltiger: Fri 2 October 2009 12:31:39 GMT +0000
Go to the top of the page
post Fri 2 October 2009 17:43:01 GMT +0000
Comment #3


Amateur Psychopharmacologist
**

Group: Members
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat 5 April 2008
From: mass
Member No.: 1,298
Diagnoses:depression, generalized anxiety, social anxiety, fibromyalgia, insomnia
Current Meds:SERO 25mg-50mg, GBP 300mg, HCTZ 25mg, LEX 10mg, ARTANE 2-4mg PRN, TRAZ 50mgPRN, fish oil



who the hell is dr bob? i dont know dr bob.

my name is bob but not doctor bob

This post has been edited by therapeuticbrigg84: Fri 2 October 2009 18:28:48 GMT +0000


--------------------
dx: migraine headaches, depression, shitty insomnia. throat tightness, angina, panic, general social anxiety, eustachian tube dysfunction, fibromyalgia

seroquel and inderal 60mgSA made me fatigued/ depressed.

inderal interacts with ssris and anti-psychs.

success HCTZ not only lowers my blood pressure and pulse more effectively. but it also has helped with the headaches ive been having. i should see a doctor about this.

rx: gabapentin 300 mg, klonopin .5-1 prn, seroquel 25 mg-50mg, omega 3 fish oil, vitamin D. lexapro 10 mg,
HCTZ 25 mg(fluid buildup)



artane 2 mg PRN(rare), trazodone 50mg PRN,

lyrica 150 mg, topamax 25 mg

*new blog update(dec 30th)*
Go to the top of the page
post Sat 3 October 2009 2:40:20 GMT +0000
Comment #4


Amateur Psychopharmacologist
**

Group: Members
Posts: 298
Joined: Fri 14 September 2007
From: Holland
Member No.: 371
Diagnoses:OCD, non-Asperger, a bit of schizo-affective disorder, hypochondria, depression.
Current Meds:Check signature.



Briggs: I also wonder sometimes if daily benzo use may not be preferable to SSRI-therapy. SSRI's poop out, eventually, and indeed, while being called anti-depressants, they have a range of effects that would be more accurately described as depressant: numbing emotions, decreasing libido and sexual pleasure, numbing enjoyment and pleasure in general, smothering feelings of genuine love and care...

Benzo's are effective and immediately acting anti-anxiety agents, and may also lift mood. There are some people here on the board who have been using benzo's for decades with good results.

I think the main stumbling block with benzo's is their potential to create physical (or biochemical) dependence. If you use a benzo for longer than about eight months, it will become progressively harder to ever quit using it.

But then, many people use one SSRI for several years, until it poops out, then switch to another one, eventually decide to quit, end up in horrible withdrawal, stay depressed for many years, try other antidepressants or return to one of the SSRI's, etcetera, etcetera. If you compare such a wayward pharmacotherapeutical route to decades of mental stability on a benzo, the latter may obviously be preferable.

Then it may be crucial to know wether long-term benzo use can eventually become depressant itself. At least for some, it seems it doesn't.


--------------------
Current meds: gabapentin (Neurontin) 1800mg; amitriptyline 20mg, escitalopram (Lexapro) 3mg.
PRN: Prozac (fluoxetine) 2.5-10mg, diazepam (Valium) 2.5-5mg; lorazepam (Ativan) 0.5-2.5mg; clonazepam, flurazepam 15mg, oxazepam 10-20mg, amisulpride 50mg, piribedil 50mg, imipramine 25mg.
Have used before: ziprasidone (Geodon), sertraline, buspirone, modafinil, selegiline, tramadol, pindolol, ondansetron, risperidone, tianeptine, amineptine, nortriptyline, codeine, clomipramine, fluvoxamine (Luvox), methylphenidate (Ritalin/Concerta), paroxetine (Paxil/Seroxat).
-Some of the magic syrup was preserved.
Go to the top of the page
post Sat 3 October 2009 3:13:05 GMT +0000
Comment #5


Amateur Psychopharmacologist
**

Group: Members
Posts: 298
Joined: Fri 14 September 2007
From: Holland
Member No.: 371
Diagnoses:OCD, non-Asperger, a bit of schizo-affective disorder, hypochondria, depression.
Current Meds:Check signature.



Hey Bengal Tiger,

Yeah, the restrictions are not easy to swallow, but if you wanna get anywhere you sometimes have to accept a different approach for a while. Stuffing people with meds is another extreme and may not be a better option. Their approach makes some sense - the p-doc started his explanation of their stance towards meds by reminding me of the fact that meds help only a meager 40% of OCD-patients, while about 100% of all patients relapse when they discontinue their meds. So, meds are obviously not much more than a crutch for this specific disorder.

I think pharmacotherapeutical interventions are most appropriate for psychotic people and for people with endogenous depression.

In my case, I am also looking for meds that make life a little easier and make living a little more fun - my self-pharmacotherapy can admittedly border on recreational use. I think I'm not the only one. Everybody wants to have a good time. Psychiatrists and doctors only think in terms of treating disorders and diseases - the idea of someone wishing to take meds just to have a better time is quite foreign to them. Of course, they are aware of drug abuse - but I don't think any recreational use of meds is abuse.

I don't think it's even possible to draw a sharp line between pharmacotherapy and recreational use of drugs. Why would you need a concentration disorder to be allowed to use Ritalin? What's wrong with students using Ritalin to help them preparing their exams? Yeah, if they use it to stay up all night, you could call it abuse. But if they would use coffee to stay up all night, what would that be? Caffeine abuse? A reason to make caffeine a scheduled drug? Come on.

Thanks for the compliment on the Dr. Bob post. I was a bit overenthusiastic in that post about 5HT2A-antagonism, and I should have included 5HT2C-antagonism more.

Yeah, the Dr. Bob forum is quite a bitch to navigate around in. It reminds me of the age of 8-bit computers.

I have never tried Cymbalta. It is an interesting drug, but it seems to have a harsh withdrawal syndrome, which is why I would be hesitant to try it.

About the Zoloft - I really only keep taking it because I don't feel like going through the withdrawal right now. It helps a little, and as a basis for the TCA's, it helps reaching significant levels of SRI.

I've tried higher levels of Zoloft only a couple of times. I think it could make me feel pretty good, but at the same time these higher doses immediately caused emotional numbing and loss of intitiative.

Prozac is interesting because it's a 5HT2C-antagonist, and one of the few 5HT2C-antagonists around that is not an antihistaminergic and therefore not sedating (at least when taken in low doses - at higher doses, its SRI may cause sedation plus all the other side-effects of full blown SRI).

Low dose Risperdal is not an option for me because of the hyperprolactinemia it causes.

Right now I'm not taking any nortriptyline directly. I take its mother drug, amitriptyline, and yes, the amitriptyline sure helps with sleep.

Geodon for ADHD... It might work. Anything might work, anything might fail. I looked at the side-effects of Neurontin yesterday with my f-doc, and we saw that it can cause depression and anxiety. He made the sobering remark that most psychotropic meds can cause precisely the symptoms that people are taking them for.

Cheers,

BB

This post has been edited by Brainbeard: Sat 3 October 2009 3:15:14 GMT +0000
Go to the top of the page
post Sat 3 October 2009 3:18:22 GMT +0000
Comment #6


Amateur Psychopharmacologist
**

Group: Members
Posts: 298
Joined: Fri 14 September 2007
From: Holland
Member No.: 371
Diagnoses:OCD, non-Asperger, a bit of schizo-affective disorder, hypochondria, depression.
Current Meds:Check signature.



QUOTE (therapeuticbrigg84 @ Sat 3 October 2009 2:43:01 GMT +0000)
who the hell is dr bob? i dont know dr bob.

my name is bob but not doctor bob


No, it's not you, Briggs, it's a website run by a doc named Bob. It has a forum called 'Psychobabble' dedicated to med-talk.
Go to the top of the page
post Sat 3 October 2009 7:51:40 GMT +0000
Comment #7


Would-be Neurologist
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,133
Joined: Tue 9 September 2008
From: Phone
Member No.: 1,953
Diagnoses: Schizoaffective d/o, bipolar type
Current Meds:See signature



I think the only explination for Luvox and Schizophrenia is the Sigma receptor it hits. There is a line of trial medications aimed at hitting that receptor to reduce psychosis. I noticed a difference actually, but it made me crazy. The only other SSRI to hit that receptor, though more lightly, is Zoloft. I took that for a number of years.


--------------------
Current Meds: Lithium Carbonate 825mg, Geodon 80+mg, Trilafon 2mg Artane 2.5mg, Klonopin 1.125mg, Adderral 20mg, Provigil 100mg.***Trying Prolixin .5mg instead of Trilafon.
Dosages are the daily total. Most meds are taken in smaller doses throughout the day.

Past meds: I've tried almost everything except MAOI's, half of the TCA's, Clozaril, Remeron and Serazone.
Go to the top of the page
post Sat 3 October 2009 10:43:02 GMT +0000
Comment #8


Amateur Psychopharmacologist
**

Group: Members
Posts: 298
Joined: Fri 14 September 2007
From: Holland
Member No.: 371
Diagnoses:OCD, non-Asperger, a bit of schizo-affective disorder, hypochondria, depression.
Current Meds:Check signature.



QUOTE (bunnyrabbit @ Sat 3 October 2009 16:51:40 GMT +0000)
The only other SSRI to hit that receptor [sigma-1, BB], though more lightly, is Zoloft. I took that for a number of years.


Didn't Zoloft make you crazy? I remember you took it with Wellbutrin, and the combo was too stimulating for you.

Actually, by the way, Lexapro (escitalopram) hits the sigma-1 receptor too, although they haven't figured out yet wether it's an agonist or antagonist (see (the last bit of) this excellent abstract for reference), probably because noone cares enough to fund the research.


--------------------
Current meds: gabapentin (Neurontin) 1800mg; amitriptyline 20mg, escitalopram (Lexapro) 3mg.
PRN: Prozac (fluoxetine) 2.5-10mg, diazepam (Valium) 2.5-5mg; lorazepam (Ativan) 0.5-2.5mg; clonazepam, flurazepam 15mg, oxazepam 10-20mg, amisulpride 50mg, piribedil 50mg, imipramine 25mg.
Have used before: ziprasidone (Geodon), sertraline, buspirone, modafinil, selegiline, tramadol, pindolol, ondansetron, risperidone, tianeptine, amineptine, nortriptyline, codeine, clomipramine, fluvoxamine (Luvox), methylphenidate (Ritalin/Concerta), paroxetine (Paxil/Seroxat).
-Some of the magic syrup was preserved.
Go to the top of the page
post Sat 3 October 2009 14:33:34 GMT +0000
Comment #9


Amateur Psychopharmacologist
**

Group: Members
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat 5 April 2008
From: mass
Member No.: 1,298
Diagnoses:depression, generalized anxiety, social anxiety, fibromyalgia, insomnia
Current Meds:SERO 25mg-50mg, GBP 300mg, HCTZ 25mg, LEX 10mg, ARTANE 2-4mg PRN, TRAZ 50mgPRN, fish oil



QUOTE (Brainbeard @ Sat 3 October 2009 6:13:05 GMT +0000)
Right now I'm not taking any nortriptyline directly. I take its mother drug, amitriptyline, and yes, the amitriptyline sure helps with sleep.

Geodon for ADHD... It might work. Anything might work, anything might fail. I looked at the side-effects of Neurontin yesterday with my f-doc, and we saw that it can cause depression and anxiety. He made the sobering remark that most psychotropic meds can cause precisely the symptoms that people are taking them for.

Cheers,

BB


yeah i thought he was talking to me when talking about nortriptyline, cause i mentioned i was taking it, but maybe he got confused.

and also i was hoping someone would answer my restlessness(akathesia) problem. i suppose i could order some piribedil for that, as it's a dopamine type drug, but not too sure.


--------------------
dx: migraine headaches, depression, shitty insomnia. throat tightness, angina, panic, general social anxiety, eustachian tube dysfunction, fibromyalgia

seroquel and inderal 60mgSA made me fatigued/ depressed.

inderal interacts with ssris and anti-psychs.

success HCTZ not only lowers my blood pressure and pulse more effectively. but it also has helped with the headaches ive been having. i should see a doctor about this.

rx: gabapentin 300 mg, klonopin .5-1 prn, seroquel 25 mg-50mg, omega 3 fish oil, vitamin D. lexapro 10 mg,
HCTZ 25 mg(fluid buildup)



artane 2 mg PRN(rare), trazodone 50mg PRN,

lyrica 150 mg, topamax 25 mg

*new blog update(dec 30th)*
Go to the top of the page
post Sun 4 October 2009 10:58:15 GMT +0000
Comment #10


DIY Trepanist
*

Group: Members
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed 9 July 2008
From: northeast u.s.
Member No.: 1,681
Diagnoses:anxiety, depression, ocd
Current Meds:cymbalta, diazepam, lamictal, seroquel...in flux a.t.m.



Hi BB,

I understand what you mean when speaking of the comraderie you have developed with the other patients at the treatment center. The understanding of others in the same boat is a powerful boost.

When you mentioned possibly returning to prozac at low dose, just how low did you mean? For me, I can live with a little of the ocd/anxiety....but the depression is a bear. That is not something so easily tolerated.

Glad you are having success with the elavil. So now at 37.5 mg, you are having almost no problems with the antihistaminergic se's? Excellent. My only issue with that med is the side effects. I am due to begin desipramine, and i am concerned with the tca side effects. My pdoc is sharp, and believes that it is a potent, effective med. If it had some type of dopamine action, that would be even better... smile.gif. Do you have any thoughts regarding desipramine?

Speaking of valium, i use it, and have no problems. I take it as directed; less if possible to keep my tolerance low...therefore making it more effective when i need it.

About the risperdal 5mg, if not for the hyperprolactenamia, would you be inclined to take it? My pdoc says it also serves very well in keeping the ruminations at bay. Have you actually tried it? My only drawback would be any emotional flattening/dulling that would occur. Is that likely at only .5mg dose?

Take care, my friend. Hope you continue to be well....

Bengaltiger...

Go to the top of the page
post Sun 4 October 2009 14:12:02 GMT +0000
Comment #11


Amateur Psychopharmacologist
**

Group: Members
Posts: 298
Joined: Fri 14 September 2007
From: Holland
Member No.: 371
Diagnoses:OCD, non-Asperger, a bit of schizo-affective disorder, hypochondria, depression.
Current Meds:Check signature.



Hey BT,

Comraderie.. That's a beautiful word.

Low dose Prozac: 2.5 minimum to 10mg max, preferably 5mg.

You are very right: OCD can to some extent even help getting through life, but depression isn't helpful in any way.

I'm on 50mg of amitriptyline now, and I'm pretty tolerant to the sedation. Also, I experience practically no other side-effects. I'm not constipated, but that may be because of the Zoloft. Dry mouth - only a little bit. Perhaps a little more tinnitus. Nothing special.

I think amitriptyline is one of the most dopaminergic TCA's because of its 5HT2A/C antagonism. Mianserin does that trick too. Amitriptyline and its metabolite nortriptyline are laid back. Desipramine is more fierce and has no anxiety relieving potential.

If Risperdal wasn't such a prolactin booster, I would surely be inclined to take it. Yes, I have actually tried it, though not for very long. I felt it didn't do enough for anxiety, while it also flattened deeper emotions like genuine love and blocked spiritual openness.

Wishing you all the best, Tiger.

-BB




[/quote]


--------------------
Current meds: gabapentin (Neurontin) 1800mg; amitriptyline 20mg, escitalopram (Lexapro) 3mg.
PRN: Prozac (fluoxetine) 2.5-10mg, diazepam (Valium) 2.5-5mg; lorazepam (Ativan) 0.5-2.5mg; clonazepam, flurazepam 15mg, oxazepam 10-20mg, amisulpride 50mg, piribedil 50mg, imipramine 25mg.
Have used before: ziprasidone (Geodon), sertraline, buspirone, modafinil, selegiline, tramadol, pindolol, ondansetron, risperidone, tianeptine, amineptine, nortriptyline, codeine, clomipramine, fluvoxamine (Luvox), methylphenidate (Ritalin/Concerta), paroxetine (Paxil/Seroxat).
-Some of the magic syrup was preserved.
Go to the top of the page
post Sun 4 October 2009 15:02:20 GMT +0000
Comment #12


Amateur Psychopharmacologist
**

Group: Members
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat 5 April 2008
From: mass
Member No.: 1,298
Diagnoses:depression, generalized anxiety, social anxiety, fibromyalgia, insomnia
Current Meds:SERO 25mg-50mg, GBP 300mg, HCTZ 25mg, LEX 10mg, ARTANE 2-4mg PRN, TRAZ 50mgPRN, fish oil



one note:
lexapro 10 mg = prozac 20 mg.
and i also heard that the lowest available dose of prozac is like 10 mg. and 20 mg prozac is the therapeutic dosage. so sure you can try 5 mg supposedly, but it may not do much just like 5 mg of lexapro, doesnt really do much either.


--------------------
dx: migraine headaches, depression, shitty insomnia. throat tightness, angina, panic, general social anxiety, eustachian tube dysfunction, fibromyalgia

seroquel and inderal 60mgSA made me fatigued/ depressed.

inderal interacts with ssris and anti-psychs.

success HCTZ not only lowers my blood pressure and pulse more effectively. but it also has helped with the headaches ive been having. i should see a doctor about this.

rx: gabapentin 300 mg, klonopin .5-1 prn, seroquel 25 mg-50mg, omega 3 fish oil, vitamin D. lexapro 10 mg,
HCTZ 25 mg(fluid buildup)



artane 2 mg PRN(rare), trazodone 50mg PRN,

lyrica 150 mg, topamax 25 mg

*new blog update(dec 30th)*
Go to the top of the page
post Mon 5 October 2009 2:22:08 GMT +0000
Comment #13


Amateur Psychopharmacologist
**

Group: Members
Posts: 298
Joined: Fri 14 September 2007
From: Holland
Member No.: 371
Diagnoses:OCD, non-Asperger, a bit of schizo-affective disorder, hypochondria, depression.
Current Meds:Check signature.



QUOTE (therapeuticbrigg84 @ Mon 5 October 2009 0:02:20 GMT +0000)
one note:
lexapro 10 mg = prozac 20 mg.
and i also heard that the lowest available dose of prozac is like 10 mg. and 20 mg prozac is the therapeutic dosage. so sure you can try 5 mg supposedly, but it may not do much just like 5 mg of lexapro, doesnt really do much either.


Briggs, Prozac is a potent 5HT2C-antagonist, and at low doses, this mechanism is still active. The 5HT2C-antagonism causes an immediate rise in dopamine and noradrenaline levels. In the initial trials of Prozac, a minimum effective dose couldn't be established, since even at very low doses people gained benefit from the drug. So you can't compare low dose Prozac with low dose Lexapro, for that matter.

Still, it isn't true either that 5mg of Lexapro doesn't do much, since for some people, this is already an effective dose. I've tried 5mg of Lexapro myself and I can assure you it did a lot already - it took away my appetite and gave me moments of bliss, which are signs of significant serotonin reuptake inhibition. (Of course,the loss of appetite would have been exchanged for the munchies soon enough if I had continued the drug. A friend of mine who is on Lexapro has nocturnal sleep-walking binge eating attacks.. He once found out in the morning that he'd eaten half a jar of honey at night.)


--------------------
Current meds: gabapentin (Neurontin) 1800mg; amitriptyline 20mg, escitalopram (Lexapro) 3mg.
PRN: Prozac (fluoxetine) 2.5-10mg, diazepam (Valium) 2.5-5mg; lorazepam (Ativan) 0.5-2.5mg; clonazepam, flurazepam 15mg, oxazepam 10-20mg, amisulpride 50mg, piribedil 50mg, imipramine 25mg.
Have used before: ziprasidone (Geodon), sertraline, buspirone, modafinil, selegiline, tramadol, pindolol, ondansetron, risperidone, tianeptine, amineptine, nortriptyline, codeine, clomipramine, fluvoxamine (Luvox), methylphenidate (Ritalin/Concerta), paroxetine (Paxil/Seroxat).
-Some of the magic syrup was preserved.
Go to the top of the page
post Mon 5 October 2009 10:54:36 GMT +0000
Comment #14


Amateur Psychopharmacologist
**

Group: Members
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat 5 April 2008
From: mass
Member No.: 1,298
Diagnoses:depression, generalized anxiety, social anxiety, fibromyalgia, insomnia
Current Meds:SERO 25mg-50mg, GBP 300mg, HCTZ 25mg, LEX 10mg, ARTANE 2-4mg PRN, TRAZ 50mgPRN, fish oil



ok, well ill admit, i had been on lexapro for a few months at 10mg before i said 5 mg is nothing.

but you're really pushing it with that 5HT2c antagonist stuff about prozac, it's main and only significant action is serotonin reuptake. everything else is secondary. Now, i can see with the Geodon talking about the 5HT2 antagonism, but with prozac no.

This post has been edited by therapeuticbrigg84: Mon 5 October 2009 11:11:48 GMT +0000


--------------------
dx: migraine headaches, depression, shitty insomnia. throat tightness, angina, panic, general social anxiety, eustachian tube dysfunction, fibromyalgia

seroquel and inderal 60mgSA made me fatigued/ depressed.

inderal interacts with ssris and anti-psychs.

success HCTZ not only lowers my blood pressure and pulse more effectively. but it also has helped with the headaches ive been having. i should see a doctor about this.

rx: gabapentin 300 mg, klonopin .5-1 prn, seroquel 25 mg-50mg, omega 3 fish oil, vitamin D. lexapro 10 mg,
HCTZ 25 mg(fluid buildup)



artane 2 mg PRN(rare), trazodone 50mg PRN,

lyrica 150 mg, topamax 25 mg

*new blog update(dec 30th)*
Go to the top of the page
post Thu 8 October 2009 11:16:30 GMT +0000
Comment #15


Amateur Psychopharmacologist
**

Group: Members
Posts: 298
Joined: Fri 14 September 2007
From: Holland
Member No.: 371
Diagnoses:OCD, non-Asperger, a bit of schizo-affective disorder, hypochondria, depression.
Current Meds:Check signature.



QUOTE (therapeuticbrigg84 @ Mon 5 October 2009 19:54:36 GMT +0000)
ok, well ill admit, i had been on lexapro for a few months at 10mg before i said 5 mg is nothing.

but you're really pushing it with that 5HT2c antagonist stuff about prozac, it's main and only significant action is serotonin reuptake. everything else is secondary. Now, i can see with the Geodon talking about the 5HT2 antagonism, but with prozac no.


Briggs, it seems like you tend to shout things without having any valid back-up. What makes you think Prozac's 5HT2C-antagonism is insignificant - your intuition? Please stick to the facts, dude.

Quoting from a 1997 study (Y. G. NI* AND R. MILEDI†, Blockage of 5HT2C serotonin receptors by fluoxetine (Prozac); Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA
Vol. 94, pp. 2036–2040, March 1997):

'Interestingly, it has been shown that the therapeutic plasma
concentration of fluoxetine is in the micromolar range,
and our studies show that, at this concentration range, fluoxetine
can potently inhibit the membrane current responses
mediated by 5HT2C receptors. Moreover, the affinity of fluoxetine
for 5HT2C receptors (Ki approx. 65 nM) is close to its affinity
for 5HT transporters (Ki approx. 33 nM)'.

What this study has found is that at low doses, Prozac is a potent 5HT2C-inhibitor, while in general, its affinity for the 5HT2C receptors is only slightly less than for the 5HT transporter. Further, the study makes clear that only a little 5HT2C-antagonism already has profound effects, whereas with 5HT reuptake inhibition, you need to saturate 5HT receptors before you get significant effects. This all proves that 5HT2C-antagonism is the main mechanism of low dose Prozac.

Listen to Stephen Stahl (Are All Atypical Antipsychotics Equal for the Treatment of Cognition and Affect in Schizophrenia?, presentation published 08/04/2004):

'Have you ever given a dose of fluoxetine (Prozac) to a patient and had them have an activation? Fluoxetine is the only other drug that has powerful 5HT2C antagonist properties; in fact, fluoxetine has more powerful antagonist properties than reuptake blocking properties.'

He also talks about it in his Essential Psychopharmacology (see under: Fluoxetine: an SSRI with 5HT2C antagonist and thus norepinephrine and dopamine disinhibiting (NDDI) properties).

You say: Prozac's main and only significant action is serotonin reuptake [inhibition, BB]?! Dude, Prozac is the dirtiest SSRI around. Its selectivity is a joke. It's the most atypical SSRI there is (Bymaster FP et alia, Fluoxetine, but not other selective serotonin uptake inhibitors, increases norepinephrine and dopamine extracellular levels in prefrontal cortex; Psychopharmacology (Berl), 2002 Apr; 160(4):353-61).

I rest my case.


--------------------
Current meds: gabapentin (Neurontin) 1800mg; amitriptyline 20mg, escitalopram (Lexapro) 3mg.
PRN: Prozac (fluoxetine) 2.5-10mg, diazepam (Valium) 2.5-5mg; lorazepam (Ativan) 0.5-2.5mg; clonazepam, flurazepam 15mg, oxazepam 10-20mg, amisulpride 50mg, piribedil 50mg, imipramine 25mg.
Have used before: ziprasidone (Geodon), sertraline, buspirone, modafinil, selegiline, tramadol, pindolol, ondansetron, risperidone, tianeptine, amineptine, nortriptyline, codeine, clomipramine, fluvoxamine (Luvox), methylphenidate (Ritalin/Concerta), paroxetine (Paxil/Seroxat).
-Some of the magic syrup was preserved.
Go to the top of the page
post Thu 8 October 2009 15:26:30 GMT +0000
Comment #16


Amateur Psychopharmacologist
**

Group: Members
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat 5 April 2008
From: mass
Member No.: 1,298
Diagnoses:depression, generalized anxiety, social anxiety, fibromyalgia, insomnia
Current Meds:SERO 25mg-50mg, GBP 300mg, HCTZ 25mg, LEX 10mg, ARTANE 2-4mg PRN, TRAZ 50mgPRN, fish oil



fine, now i agree with you, i guess i didnt know as much as i thought i knew about prozac. i just assumed that it was a standard issue SSRI.


--------------------
dx: migraine headaches, depression, shitty insomnia. throat tightness, angina, panic, general social anxiety, eustachian tube dysfunction, fibromyalgia

seroquel and inderal 60mgSA made me fatigued/ depressed.

inderal interacts with ssris and anti-psychs.

success HCTZ not only lowers my blood pressure and pulse more effectively. but it also has helped with the headaches ive been having. i should see a doctor about this.

rx: gabapentin 300 mg, klonopin .5-1 prn, seroquel 25 mg-50mg, omega 3 fish oil, vitamin D. lexapro 10 mg,
HCTZ 25 mg(fluid buildup)



artane 2 mg PRN(rare), trazodone 50mg PRN,

lyrica 150 mg, topamax 25 mg

*new blog update(dec 30th)*
Go to the top of the page
post Fri 9 October 2009 2:15:56 GMT +0000
Comment #17


Amateur Psychopharmacologist
**

Group: Members
Posts: 298
Joined: Fri 14 September 2007
From: Holland
Member No.: 371
Diagnoses:OCD, non-Asperger, a bit of schizo-affective disorder, hypochondria, depression.
Current Meds:Check signature.



QUOTE (therapeuticbrigg84 @ Fri 9 October 2009 0:26:30 GMT +0000)
fine, now i agree with you, i guess i didnt know as much as i thought i knew about prozac. i just assumed that it was a standard issue SSRI.


Briggs, I'm glad I didn't piss you off - I have to admit that I was in a bit of a dark and irritable mood when I wrote the reply, although I tried to keep a decent tone. Of course, you can always ask for evidence.

Cheers mate,

-BB


--------------------
Current meds: gabapentin (Neurontin) 1800mg; amitriptyline 20mg, escitalopram (Lexapro) 3mg.
PRN: Prozac (fluoxetine) 2.5-10mg, diazepam (Valium) 2.5-5mg; lorazepam (Ativan) 0.5-2.5mg; clonazepam, flurazepam 15mg, oxazepam 10-20mg, amisulpride 50mg, piribedil 50mg, imipramine 25mg.
Have used before: ziprasidone (Geodon), sertraline, buspirone, modafinil, selegiline, tramadol, pindolol, ondansetron, risperidone, tianeptine, amineptine, nortriptyline, codeine, clomipramine, fluvoxamine (Luvox), methylphenidate (Ritalin/Concerta), paroxetine (Paxil/Seroxat).
-Some of the magic syrup was preserved.
Go to the top of the page
post Fri 9 October 2009 10:27:10 GMT +0000
Comment #18


Amateur Psychopharmacologist
**

Group: Members
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat 5 April 2008
From: mass
Member No.: 1,298
Diagnoses:depression, generalized anxiety, social anxiety, fibromyalgia, insomnia
Current Meds:SERO 25mg-50mg, GBP 300mg, HCTZ 25mg, LEX 10mg, ARTANE 2-4mg PRN, TRAZ 50mgPRN, fish oil



right, no u didnt seem too pissed off except at the beginning. but i mean when you write shit online you can kind of not take it the wrong way, cuz its just written words. so u basically take it with a grain of salt most times... unless u start capitalizing shit, but otherwise no.

now that i think of it, i do kind of tend to shout things, lol. like "hey guy there, im right!" lol, sometimes i can get things right.

wait a second, let me go look prozac up on wikipedia-lol jk!!

This post has been edited by therapeuticbrigg84: Mon 12 October 2009 20:19:10 GMT +0000


--------------------
dx: migraine headaches, depression, shitty insomnia. throat tightness, angina, panic, general social anxiety, eustachian tube dysfunction, fibromyalgia

seroquel and inderal 60mgSA made me fatigued/ depressed.

inderal interacts with ssris and anti-psychs.

success HCTZ not only lowers my blood pressure and pulse more effectively. but it also has helped with the headaches ive been having. i should see a doctor about this.

rx: gabapentin 300 mg, klonopin .5-1 prn, seroquel 25 mg-50mg, omega 3 fish oil, vitamin D. lexapro 10 mg,
HCTZ 25 mg(fluid buildup)



artane 2 mg PRN(rare), trazodone 50mg PRN,

lyrica 150 mg, topamax 25 mg

*new blog update(dec 30th)*
Go to the top of the page

 
« Next Oldest · Brainbeardia Vulgaris · Next Newest »
 
My Picture