16 replies to this topic

[Silver]

I really like Corpus Callosum's blog. This is thus a link to a link, with a little bit of commentary from CC. And the graph is a lovely illustration of an important point.

http://scienceblogs....utm_medium=link

Follow the links out to ScienceCentral, etc. This has potential.

Edited by Silver, 01 October 2007 - 03:00 PM.

[Silver]

Here's more on the topic from Wired.

[Stacia]

Here's more on the topic from Wired.

Interesting. If someone can snag the Oct Jrnl of Psych study or the NIMH one coming out, that'd be great.

Think we could petition NeuroMark to use folks taking, oh, say, Lithium??? A little extra gene research on the side wouldn't hurt.

On a rather irrelevant note... does anyone here consider themselves very depressed if they don't have suicide popping in their head? I just found it a bit interesting that 94% of the Celexa users didn't.

[Silver]

Here's more on the topic from Wired.

Interesting. If someone can snag the Oct Jrnl of Psych study or the NIMH one coming out, that'd be great.

Think we could petition NeuroMark to use folks taking, oh, say, Lithium??? A little extra gene research on the side wouldn't hurt.

On a rather irrelevant note... does anyone here consider themselves very depressed if they don't have suicide popping in their head? I just found it a bit interesting that 94% of the Celexa users didn't.

My library doesn't get fulltext on the journal for 6 months. NIMH should be up soon, though, like the day it's released. I can't get into NIMH from my office machine for some reason. Apparently it's too racy. Yet I can come here. Yet another site to discuss with the IT girls.

I get SI when I'm just lightly dysthymic, so I have no idea what these Celexa users are about. One of the reasons I put up with lithium in my 20s was that it helped shut the SI up.

From the Neuromark website:

Please send an email to info@neuromark.com or call 303 499-9777
if you would like to receive information regarding the Mark-C test in the mail. Further announcements will be forthcoming on October 11th regarding additional markers that are included in the Mark-C test, ordering the test, participating in the National Outcomes Database Project and other confirmatory studies underway. This website will re-open on October 11th, 2007.

So I'm thinking October 11th for NIMH.

ETA: Here's what NIMH has so far. It's not published, so no PMID yet, but more information, anyway.

Edited by Silver, 01 October 2007 - 09:34 PM.

[NicScraps]

On a rather irrelevant note... does anyone here consider themselves very depressed if they don't have suicide popping in their head? I just found it a bit interesting that 94% of the Celexa users didn't.

For me, yes. Suicidal ideation is relatively rare for me, but deep depression is not all that rare.

Maybe it depends on how your depression presents. My depression usually includes lack of energy, lack of motivation, loss of interest in (insert most any activity here), but it doesn't generally include feelings of worthlessness, feelings of being a failure or excessive guilt. Hopelessness is sometimes, but not often, a feature.

I think I also utilize my OCD a bit to avoid SI. I'm rather compulsive about avoiding thoughts of suicide.

Still, I think 94% sounds way too high for that stat, too.

Nicole

[sorrel]

If someone can snag the Oct Jrnl of Psych study

I can get it. What do you want to know?


As for whether you can be severely depressed without being suicidal, it's amazing how differently different cases of depression can present. I know people who have really incapacitating depressions that mostly consist of major inertia -- not getting out of bed, not doing anything, not caring about anything, etc. Not suicidal, but they are certainly less functional than I've ever been while feeling actively suicidal.

[Stacia]

If someone can snag the Oct Jrnl of Psych study

I can get it. What do you want to know?


As for whether you can be severely depressed without being suicidal, it's amazing how differently different cases of depression can present. I know people who have really incapacitating depressions that mostly consist of major inertia -- not getting out of bed, not doing anything, not caring about anything, etc. Not suicidal, but they are certainly less functional than I've ever been while feeling actively suicidal.

Can you post the link when the article comes out?

I too find it amazing how different the illness presents. I guess I can understand no suicidal ideations, but it's bit of a challenge since the idea pops in and out of my head while still dysthymic. It's when it starts sticking that's a real problem. Anyway, interesting that there are so many variations, yet 94% still seems awfully high.

[sorrel]

I don't think the article is ever going to have full text available free online. But I can get the full-text online right now because I have access through my place of employment. So I can post additional data from it if you have nagging questions or whatever.

[Stacia]

I don't think the article is ever going to have full text available free online. But I can get the full-text online right now because I have access through my place of employment. So I can post additional data from it if you have nagging questions or whatever.

I'll leave it to your discretion whether there's enough of interest to post that wasn't already covered. It's not something that will make a material difference to my life, so my interest is limited to idle curiosity.

[dymphna]

I too find it amazing how different the illness presents. I guess I can understand no suicidal ideations, but it's bit of a challenge since the idea pops in and out of my head while still dysthymic. It's when it starts sticking that's a real problem. Anyway, interesting that there are so many variations, yet 94% still seems awfully high.

I've always heard and read that a person with suicidal tendencies (the actual tendency, not the band) is not physically or mentally capable of suicide when at rock bottom. Hence all of the stories: "We don't know what happened, she was doing so well -- and then she commited suicide." It takes energy to off oneself.


Dymphna

[Stacia]

I too find it amazing how different the illness presents. I guess I can understand no suicidal ideations, but it's bit of a challenge since the idea pops in and out of my head while still dysthymic. It's when it starts sticking that's a real problem. Anyway, interesting that there are so many variations, yet 94% still seems awfully high.

I've always heard and read that a person with suicidal tendencies (the actual tendency, not the band) is not physically or mentally capable of suicide when at rock bottom. Hence all of the stories: "We don't know what happened, she was doing so well -- and then she commited suicide." It takes energy to off oneself.


Dymphna

That would describe me, or at least the ability to actually pull it off. I worry more about the decent now, ya know, bailing out to avoid hitting rock bottom.

[Silver]

I've always heard and read that a person with suicidal tendencies (the actual tendency, not the band) is not physically or mentally capable of suicide when at rock bottom. Hence all of the stories: "We don't know what happened, she was doing so well -- and then she commited suicide." It takes energy to off oneself.

I think this is much of what makes a mixed state so lethal.

One side of my family has a creepily high rate of suicide. No attempts, they just do it. (Me, age 21: "Do we have a family history of heart disease?" My dad: "I don't know, they all just kill themselves, the ME doesn't tell us if they had arteriosclerosis.") All of the completed suicides in the past three generations have been people in a mixed state or dysphoric mania (by history from the people around them, who can recognize these pretty well from experience) who were using large amounts of alcohol and/or unprescribed benzodiazepines or, back in the day, barbiturates. Anything to slow down.
They have suicidal thoughts, plans, ruminations all the time, I'm told - even the hyperthymic ones. (The underlithiated ones. Lithium really extended life expectancy for that side of the family. My generation is all around but 1.) They don't take action til they're mixed and disinhibited.

Severe depression plus chaotic energy and mental agitation, with additional disinhibition in the form of booze/BZD/Miltowns, is not a good mix.

I'd like to know how much the gene in question correlates with a clinical dx of BPAD now and down the road.

[sorrel]

A few things I found interesting from this paper:

The authors pointed out that "treatment-emergent suicidal ideation" (as they called it) is reasonably rare, despite all the attention it gets. Among patients taking an antidepressant, 4% develop treatment-emergent suicidal ideation. Among patients taking a placebo, 2% develop it. Not a huge and impressive difference, I have to say.

The researchers used a standard questionnaire to measure suicidal ideation. There was a 3-point rating scale:

Possible responses to item 12 include: "I do not think of suicide or death" (coded 0), "I feel that life is empty or wonder if it is worth living" (coded 1), "I think of suicide or death several times a week for several minutes" (coded 2), and "I think of suicide or death several times a day in some detail, or I have made specific plans for suicide, or have actually tried to take my life" (coded 3). Participants who scored 0 on this item before citalopram treatment and 1, 2, or 3 at least once during treatment were defined as having treatment-emergent suicidal ideation (N=120 cases).

They found that there was no difference, genetically speaking, between those who went from 0 to 1 and those who went from 0 to 3. So having a vague feeling that life is empty is considered treatment-emergent suicidal ideation just as much as, say, having a detailed plan or actually attempting.

Apparently their test can detect liars. One guy in the study actually did attempt suicide during the study period. (He was one of 2 patients who attempted.) He had consistently denied any suicidal ideation at all during the treatment period, but he was found to have both the high-risk alleles.

There was NO correllation between the identified genes and a history of suicidality, or having been suicidal at the beginning of the study. It was only correllated with those cases where the person had no suicidal ideation before, and developed suicidal ideation during treatment.

People with bipolar disorder, psychotic disorders, OCD, or eating disorders were excluded from the study.

[Ophelia]

Think we could petition NeuroMark to use folks taking, oh, say, Lithium??? A little extra gene research on the side wouldn't hurt.

On a rather irrelevant note... does anyone here consider themselves very depressed if they don't have suicide popping in their head? I just found it a bit interesting that 94% of the Celexa users didn't.

Kaiser Permanente has been doing some research on mental health and other issues using DNA samples.

I have a friend who's bipolar with extremely severe depression - he was considering ECT last time I talked to him. He said he didn't have suicidal ideation.

[Ophelia]

On a rather irrelevant note... does anyone here consider themselves very depressed if they don't have suicide popping in their head? I just found it a bit interesting that 94% of the Celexa users didn't.

For me, yes. Suicidal ideation is relatively rare for me, but deep depression is not all that rare.

Maybe it depends on how your depression presents. My depression usually includes lack of energy, lack of motivation, loss of interest in (insert most any activity here), but it doesn't generally include feelings of worthlessness, feelings of being a failure or excessive guilt. Hopelessness is sometimes, but not often, a feature.

I think I also utilize my OCD a bit to avoid SI. I'm rather compulsive about avoiding thoughts of suicide.

Still, I think 94% sounds way too high for that stat, too.

Nicole

My depression includes extremely persistent, intrusive SI, along with very low energy, demotivation, anhedonia, feelings of hopelessness. I don't feel worthless or excessively guilty, but I do get quite frustrated at the way my mental illness has caused failures in so many areas.

I wish I could compulsively avoid those thoughts or get them to shut the hell up. The combination of Lamictal and Seroquel has finally shut them up - hooray!

[2catsmad]

This is interesting. My brother has attempted suicide a few times, and probably more times than I am aware of. He had three attempts in one year; one was nearly successful. People say it's for attention, and for the most part that is true but it nearly got him killed. There is addiction in my mom's side of the family, but for the most part I would say they are very high functioning, and successful people with a penchant for drink, cigarettes and emotional outbursts.

My mother, last year as I recall seemed strange to me. I did not know she was taking benzos daily at the time, and possibly mixing it with booze. She seemed hyper sensitive to the point of paranoid. She has never attempted suicide, and I am not aware of any ideations.

My own ideations can be sudden. I am experiencing them now. It just came on. The thing that set me off was so slight. A sudden thinking of, "oh this is futile, I have to fight so hard" and voila, there it is. I will feel miserable; ideations will haunt me, but I won't necessarily act, and I will be more likely to seek help then.

Other times I don't really feel suicidal but it's just something I entertain- I think I am more of a danger to myself then because I am capable of thinking it through.

I think I am milder version of my brother (in terms of self harm, acting on ideations), but with more mood instability, and severe anxiety.