10 replies to this topic

[bunnyrabbit]

I know that mood episodes (manic, mixed, depressive) and psychotic episodes can cause various brain changes.

Does anyone know if these changes are permanent? Are these changes accumalitive? Is there a maxium amount of damage done no matter how many episodes a person has? Does it matter how long the mood and/or psychotic episode lasts?

[notfred]

I know that mood episodes (manic, mixed, depressive) and psychotic episodes can cause various brain changes.

Does anyone know if these changes are permanent? Are these changes accumulative? Is there a maximum amount of damage done no matter how many episodes a person has? Does it matter how long the mood and/or psychotic episode lasts?

Those are not questions that can be answered with surety, neuroscience is not there yet.

I suspect these chages can become chronic if the underlying illness is not treated. Prior to 1950's and treatment, historical evidence seems to indicate there was significant disability in the chronic MI patient.

I suspect they are accumulative if the cause is not removed or treated or enough time between episodes is allowed for, to rewire and regrow.

I have no opinion on a maximum amount of damage.

As to if the episode length matters, well gee, the episode/mood/whatever causes the "changes" so it follows less is better.

nf

[notfred]

I believe there is sufficient evidence to prove actual loss of grey matter in depressed and schizophrenic patients.

I've read more than one study on this topic. Let me see if I can find them.

jook

ETA-

here's 2 of many-

http://ajp.psychiatr.../160/8/1516.pdf

http://www.scienceda...70720103036.htm

There is no doubt on that point. I was speaking about permanence.

nf

Edited by notfred, 28 September 2008 - 07:40 PM.

[martasi2]

There is much research into regrowth of neurons and the brain's ability to repair itself. It's known as plasticity. Some meds (such as Lithium) can aid brain repair; also estrogen has been shown to help produce new brain cells. Not sure about other hormones in this regard. Do an online search with the word "plasticity" and see what comes up (also plasticity+your disorder).

As posted elsewhere here, there's also research into glutamate and its function in brain health and cell destruction as well as meds that work on this chemical system.

Try not to worry about brain damage from episodes. Thinking about sustained cumulative brain damage is a huge stressor, and there's no easy way to find an answer. You could always go to a major medical center with some sort of ongoing brain imaging study if you wanted to go this route. Also can read:

"Mind, Stress & Emotions" by Gene Wallenstein, Ph.D. (pub. 2003) has some interesting info. in this area.

Edited by martasi2, 28 September 2008 - 07:54 PM.

[notfred]

Try not to worry about brain damage from episodes. Thinking about sustained cumulative brain damage is a huge stressor, and there's no easy way to find an answer.

One thing within our control is finding a treatment regimen that works and sticking with it. There is evidence that treatment will protect and grow parts of your neuroanatomy.

nf

[bunnyrabbit]

Thank you all for your responses and information. You have gaiven me a lot to ponder.

[Jerod Poore]

There is no doubt on that point. I was speaking about permanence.

I would think damage would be permanent if left untreated.
And there are many studies proving the cellular growth benefits of lithium and some AEDs and some ADs.
Reversal is entirely possible with proper treatment.

Try not to worry about brain damage from episodes. Thinking about sustained cumulative brain damage is a huge stressor, and there's no easy way to find an answer.

One thing within our control is finding a treatment regimen that works and sticking with it. There is evidence that treatment will protect and grow parts of your neuroanatomy.

Those are the key elements, with mounting evidence in both rat and human studies involving epilepsy, bipolar disorder and schizophrenia that the damage from repeated episodes of seizures and/or extreme crazy (known as kindling) can be reversed.

They are also why anti-psychiatry groups and all of the factors that add to the stigma against medication are so harmful. One way or another untreated brain cooties kill.

[bunnyrabbit]

I think Lithium helps the brain. In 1993, I saw a neurologist for headaches. She ordered a CT scan. I remember that she remarked that I had a densly packed brain. I was very proud of this. I think now my then densly packed brain was because I had been on lithium for 1 1/2 years. I don't think the research had been published about Lithium and brain growth at the time. I am concerned about the long, untreated psychosis and if I will have residual psychosis for the rest of my life, or if lithium will help my brain heal.

[Sduibek]

Someone mentioned stress above. That is something to think about for sure, as stress releases cortisol and high amounts of cortisol can cause brain damage. So if you're in a very high-stress job, home environment, etc., you need to get that under control. It's #2 under getting your meds stable in my book. You can't really expect your brain to fully heal / recover if there's chaos making you crazy in an entirely different way


http://www.youramazi...stressbrain.htm

http://www.fi.edu/le...ain/stress.html

[bunnyrabbit]

Thanks for the info.

[Sduibek]

Thanks for the info.

Yep! Anytime. Learning is good... it's the bazooka and submachine gun to use against the devils of confusion and helplessness

Edited by Sduibek, 22 February 2009 - 12:56 PM.