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Enhancing The Effects Of Klonopin (Or Other Benzos)


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#1 In_Remission_Alexa

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Posted 05 February 2011 - 11:32 PM

So I take Clonazepam (Klonopin) 1mg daily for my constant anxiety and panic. I love it so far. Side effects- minimal, and I just feel happy and carefree for the most part without feeling incoherent or forgetful.

Even though it works well a majority of the time, occasionally it's just not enough. My panic/anxiety is so bad sometimes that it goes right through the meds and I need to take another dose. (I think the mix of my Bipolar is the culprit, my state of mind goes up and down so much that the medicine works well for one week, then nothing the next). I know that's not following my doctor's regimen, but I also know I'm not OD'ing or taking more than prescribed everyday so it's not the worse thing I could do. But it's also not the best. My rational solution would be to raise the dosage from 1mg to 2mg.

However, I just moved to a new state and I have a new psychiatrist. I'm afraid to ask for a higher dose right away because I don't want him to get suspicious and question my intentions. At this point in our relationship, I could just be a dope fiend looking to score. I'd rather wait until another visit or two before I suggest that.

So my question is, as bizarre as it may sound, are there any unconventional (but legal) ways to kind of enhance the Clonazepam in my system? I know certain foods and vitamins can have either enhancing or diminishing effects on certain drugs (Anti-Acids enhance the effects of Adderall for example). I was just wondering if there are any for Clonazepam. (or Benzos in general).

and if not, are there any medications that anyone has used with it to help that I could possibly mention to my psychiatrist in the future?


Sorry this is my first post and I'm kind of scrambled right now. I've been lurking on the forums and so many people sound so profound in their posts that I must admit, I'm a bit intimidated.



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#2 dymphna

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 06:52 AM

So I take Clonazepam (Klonopin) 1mg daily for my constant anxiety and panic. I love it so far. Side effects- minimal, and I just feel happy and carefree for the most part without feeling incoherent or forgetful.

Even though it works well a majority of the time, occasionally it's just not enough. My panic/anxiety is so bad sometimes that it goes right through the meds and I need to take another dose. (I think the mix of my Bipolar is the culprit, my state of mind goes up and down so much that the medicine works well for one week, then nothing the next). I know that's not following my doctor's regimen, but I also know I'm not OD'ing or taking more than prescribed everyday so it's not the worse thing I could do. But it's also not the best. My rational solution would be to raise the dosage from 1mg to 2mg.

However, I just moved to a new state and I have a new psychiatrist. I'm afraid to ask for a higher dose right away because I don't want him to get suspicious and question my intentions. At this point in our relationship, I could just be a dope fiend looking to score. I'd rather wait until another visit or two before I suggest that.

So my question is, as bizarre as it may sound, are there any unconventional (but legal) ways to kind of enhance the Clonazepam in my system? I know certain foods and vitamins can have either enhancing or diminishing effects on certain drugs (Anti-Acids enhance the effects of Adderall for example). I was just wondering if there are any for Clonazepam. (or Benzos in general).

and if not, are there any medications that anyone has used with it to help that I could possibly mention to my psychiatrist in the future?


Sorry this is my first post and I'm kind of scrambled right now. I've been lurking on the forums and so many people sound so profound in their posts that I must admit, I'm a bit intimidated.


Ideally? Manage your bipolar better. As in, sit down with your new Pdoc, go over your existing medications, and see if you're truly on the best combination/doses for your illness. Brain cooties change over time. Meds sometimes have to be swapped out, doses often need to be changed.

As to your current situation, if I were in your shoes, I wouldn't be looking at "boosting" my K as much as 1. identifying and charting the situations where I am feeling a need for more K so that I can see if there is a pattern to it (very helpful, especially to both a doc and a therapist looking to adjust meds and help with coping techniques) and 2. looking at the meds I was already on. eg: you mentioned you had Seroquel prn prescribed. Why aren't you taking it? Seroquel will knock a person on their ass - it can certainly take anxiety down several notches.


Dymphna
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Yes, my name really is Dymphna.

 

I'm not a doctor, nurse, pharmacist, or therapist.

I can find you an answer and I won't blow smoke up your ass.

 

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#3 In_Remission_Alexa

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 02:57 PM

Ideally? Manage your bipolar better. As in, sit down with your new Pdoc, go over your existing medications, and see if you're truly on the best combination/doses for your illness. Brain cooties change over time. Meds sometimes have to be swapped out, doses often need to be changed.

As to your current situation, if I were in your shoes, I wouldn't be looking at "boosting" my K as much as 1. identifying and charting the situations where I am feeling a need for more K so that I can see if there is a pattern to it (very helpful, especially to both a doc and a therapist looking to adjust meds and help with coping techniques) and 2. looking at the meds I was already on. eg: you mentioned you had Seroquel prn prescribed. Why aren't you taking it? Seroquel will knock a person on their ass - it can certainly take anxiety down several notches.


Dymphna


Yeah, I do need to manage the bipolar better. It's just with the move, I don't have my therapist (who I have seen for almost 7 years) who knew me very well to turn to. And unfortunately, my insurance plan only covers a rather shitty office of psychiatrists, who don't require me to see a therapist. The practice I went to back home required me to. Now I feel like I go into an office and have to prescribe myself medicine. My psychiatrist barely exchanges 5 words with me when I go in. I'm still looking at my options.

Anyway, I only take the Seroquel for a short period (about 2 weeks) to help level me out during my extreme manic episodes (which really only happen about once a year now, if that). I honestly HATE the drug, but it works, so I take it as soon as I feel myself spiraling out of control. However, I don't think I'm having a severe manic episode and if I can avoid taking Seroquel, I'd like to. It makes me a zombie and have less energy than I already have (I have Hypothyroidism which causes constant fatigue).

I have not liked any of the daily meds I've been put on specifically for Bipolar, unfortunately. I'm still open to trying new stuff though.

But the Adderall/Klonopin combination had been working well for me for a while. My old P put me on it back and home and it really seemed to make a difference. I was surprised that a stimulant and a benzo could work so well with managing my bipolar (with, as I'm sure you're aware, usually includes ADD & Anxiety/Panic Disorder). The Klonopin balances out the hard hitting effects Adderall can give you, but the Adderall balances out the sedative-like effects of Klonopin.
I've been more productive and relaxed than I ever remember being. No nasty side effects or anything.

It's just that I think maybe adding another drug or changing a dose would help, I've been under more stress than usual lately (the move has just been a stressor, it wasn't one I wanted to make).

I was just looking for possible natural ways to sort of give the Klonopin a push so I don't feel like I need to take more than 1mg. But like you said, I should talk to my doctor about it. It's just awkward when he doesn't even look me in the eye.

Does anyone else take these meds (or ones like them) and possibly something else for their bipolar/depression/anxiety? It'd be nice to at least have something to suggest to the psych.

Thanks!

#4 Halberd of Hope

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 09:09 AM

You say that you felt happy and carefree on klonopin. That's how it started out for me, too. After a few weeks though, your body adjusts and while the anxiety may still be as manageable as it was before, the happy, nice feelings are gone and that feels like the klon isn't "working" as well anymore. It's easier to handle anxiety when you're feeling happy like that, but that's a bonus that doesn't seem to last with longer use of benzos. Sometimes that's where coping skills need to come in to supplement the medication.

Gabapentin worked well for me for managing anxiety. Again, the happy, carefree feeling does go away, but it keeps me from flipping out all the time. It might be worth bringing up to your pdoc if you're still looking for options.

I know this is an old post, so hopefully you got things figured out.
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#5 sc2501

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 11:02 AM

I would suggest looking for other ways of controlling anxiety than benzos. I'm not viciously anti-benzo, but I think there are strong arguments to be made to advise at least searching for other options. Low doses of Seroquel (not nearly enough to cause weight gain or much more than drowsiness - say, 12.5 mg) often help people with insomnia with a low-rate of crap-out. My Lexapro keeps the anxiety and depression somewhat at bay, the Lamictal helps with labile mood, and the Abilify is now keeping me out of a bad depressive episode. I felt more comfortable taking Seroquel regularly than Benzos as I found my benzo tolerance went up shockingly fast, which may be happening with you. Benzos are addictive; they are necessary for some, but proceed with caution. Buspar could be an option to at least try, worth a shot. I would explore some other options. Good luck!
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#6 eclipsed

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 01:01 PM

Geodon has been the home run for me.
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#7 KarenRB53

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 04:29 PM

You say that you felt happy and carefree on klonopin. That's how it started out for me, too. After a few weeks though, your body adjusts and while the anxiety may still be as manageable as it was before, the happy, nice feelings are gone and that feels like the klon isn't "working" as well anymore. It's easier to handle anxiety when you're feeling happy like that, but that's a bonus that doesn't seem to last with longer use of benzos. Sometimes that's where coping skills need to come in to supplement the medication.

Gabapentin worked well for me for managing anxiety. Again, the happy, carefree feeling does go away, but it keeps me from flipping out all the time. It might be worth bringing up to your pdoc if you're still looking for options.

I know this is an old post, so hopefully you got things figured out.



I know this is an older post but hopefully you'll see it. Did the Gabapentin work better for you than Klonopin? I switched from Lorazepam to Clonazepam on Sept 23, 2011 and at first it worked well but now I'm so achy and sore all over all the time and even though the anxiety seems better (I feel more even than on lorazepam) it does make me a bit sadder. But its the physical part that bothers me the most. It makes my blood sugar levels rise (I'm pre-diabetic and well managed) and also my blood pressure is a bit higher than it has been in a long time. Just trying to figure out if I should stay on the clonazepam.
Thanks
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#8 Halberd of Hope

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 11:05 AM

We touched on this on another thread but I'll answer here, too...gabapentin is a lot different from klonopin. It doesn't work as a rescue med, and I take it every day. But it also doesn't make me tired or hung over like klonopin can. Gabapentin lowers my baseline anxiety, and then if I have breakthrough anxiety once in a while I take valium and I'm good.

I'm not aware of klonopin causing physical pain or affecting blood sugar, so it might be worth visiting with your doctor about, but if it's making you feel worse, I'd look in to either valium as a replacement benzo, and/or gabapentin, pregablin, a beta blocker, buspar, etc for bringing down the anxiety you feel throughout the day.
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As a general rule, people, even the wicked, are much more naive and simple-hearted than we suppose. And we ourselves are, too.
-Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov.

Current Meds: Lyrica 75mg, lithium 600mg daily, Maxalt 10mg PRN, clonazepam 1mg PRN, Reclipsen .15/.03 (OCP)
+ Fish Oil (800mg EPA 400mg DHA),Magnesium Oxide 750mg, Vitamin D3 2000 IU

Ex-Meds:
ADs: Paxil, Zoloft, Effexor, Lexapro, Wellbutrin, Cymbalta, Celexa, amitriptyline, lofepramine (mostly awesome--wish it were in the US), Prozac, Nortryptyline
Benzos: Klonopin, Ativan, Tranxene
AAPs: Abilify
ACs: Lamictal, Neurontin (great for anxiety), Topamax (3 days)
Triptans: Zomig, Imitrex, Treximet
Others: Midrin, Nadolol, Propanolol, Clonidine, Strattera


#9 bergsonisme

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 02:48 PM

These threads should be closed earlier. The "name a random drug" thing is starting again.

I have a some shrapnels of information to add, but they'd come embedded in a plump roll of impatient rudeness seasoned with political incorrectness. I'll vote for Dymphna instead; my opinion doesn't matter much, but whatever he/she said, plus-one it.
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#10 VAL

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 04:31 PM

These threads should be closed earlier. The "name a random drug" thing is starting again.


When a person mentions a variety of possible solutions they aren't necessarily just pulling names out of their ass...they may actually have had positive experiences with the meds or they may have tried them and not have had success but still be familiar enough based upon a pdoc's advise to suggest it might work for someone else.

You're far more intelligent and knowledgeable than I but it doesn't mean you're correct in all your opinions and you of course, know that medications are used off-label and it's both legal here in the US and not uncommon so, for instance, while you may be of the opinion that it's an abuse of Inderal to use it for anxiety, that doesn't mean it actually is an abuse or an unreasonable choice to try.
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#11 bergsonisme

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 06:15 PM

Hey, now. You're a "Would-be neurologist", I'm just an "Amateur psychopharmacologist".

I just have the feeling that this particular person will basically get any reasonable (non-addictive, etc.) rx she asks for it directly. I was seconding and will second again D's point that the best thing to do at this point is to talk to the doctor not about the meds she wants but about the problems she has, recheck her ddx and then decide on a medication protocol. I mean, the girl takes Adderall; it may be the case that all that it takes for the anxiety to go away is taking the Adderall away.

Symptoms are not people. They can't be treated in an isolated fashion, nor can they be taken as an indivisible whole. Symptoms are shorthands, words, and words have different meanings for different people; one of the functions of the shrink-patient relationship is getting to agree on a common "code"; my pdoc understands what I mean by "depersonalization", "John Dillinger syndrome" or "a particularly ugly attack of The Novembers".

Now, standardized symptom descriptions are an extremely useful tool iff they have enough specificity. "Anxiety" is a useful enough construct -- helpful as an initial point both for ddx and medication protocols. But what we have here is prn-seeking behavior, which requires unpacking what this "anxiety" actually is so we know if it's atypical depression and call for tricyclics or PTSD-type panic and call for selective reuptake inhibitors, for example -- and this is just something that comes to mind impromptu; certainly the pdoc can run through this process better than any of us can. This is not the case for "oo, I once took Benadryl, what a boon to my anxiety that was". Let alone recommending beta blockers, for the sake of Gene Krupa's imortal soul in the Mount Olympus.

Edited by syntaxfree, 10 November 2011 - 06:16 PM.

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#12 bergsonisme

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 06:20 PM

But you know what? I'm tired of getting crap for trying to get people to think straight.

Klonopin takes a while to "take" usually. Take a normal tablet, break it in two and let it dissolve under your tongue. The membrane will get the substance straight to the bloodstream, and the tranquilizing effect will be quicker and stronger, though much, much shorter-lived. If you want to be a pharm junkie, there's your stepping stone. But don't waste your time with benzos, there are more fun rides to be had.

Edited by syntaxfree, 10 November 2011 - 06:23 PM.

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#13 Halberd of Hope

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 09:43 PM

Hey, now. You're a "Would-be neurologist", I'm just an "Amateur psychopharmacologist".

I just have the feeling that this particular person will basically get any reasonable (non-addictive, etc.) rx she asks for it directly. I was seconding and will second again D's point that the best thing to do at this point is to talk to the doctor not about the meds she wants but about the problems she has, recheck her ddx and then decide on a medication protocol. I mean, the girl takes Adderall; it may be the case that all that it takes for the anxiety to go away is taking the Adderall away.

Symptoms are not people. They can't be treated in an isolated fashion, nor can they be taken as an indivisible whole. Symptoms are shorthands, words, and words have different meanings for different people; one of the functions of the shrink-patient relationship is getting to agree on a common "code"; my pdoc understands what I mean by "depersonalization", "John Dillinger syndrome" or "a particularly ugly attack of The Novembers".

Now, standardized symptom descriptions are an extremely useful tool iff they have enough specificity. "Anxiety" is a useful enough construct -- helpful as an initial point both for ddx and medication protocols. But what we have here is prn-seeking behavior, which requires unpacking what this "anxiety" actually is so we know if it's atypical depression and call for tricyclics or PTSD-type panic and call for selective reuptake inhibitors, for example -- and this is just something that comes to mind impromptu; certainly the pdoc can run through this process better than any of us can. This is not the case for "oo, I once took Benadryl, what a boon to my anxiety that was". Let alone recommending beta blockers, for the sake of Gene Krupa's imortal soul in the Mount Olympus.



Of course the idea is that the pdoc will run through the process better than any civilian or random bloke off the internet. Some people like to research things ahead of the appointment to know what's out there, what they may or may not be interested in, et cetera.

Pregablin and gabapentin are used off-label for anxiety with success in some people, myself included. BuSpar is approved for anxiety.

Beta blockers are not a "random" suggestion for anxiety. Treatments may be different in your country. While there are conflicting conclusions published about efficacy (for example: http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/1686251 vs http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2890677 ), they work for some people. That's pretty common in the world of meds used for brain cooties, so individuals, along with their doctors, can decide whether or not they're interested in taking the chance.

None of the above are commonly (if at all?) used as PRNs; I'm not sure where you see the PRN seeking.

Edited by hammer of dusk, 10 November 2011 - 10:28 PM.

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As a general rule, people, even the wicked, are much more naive and simple-hearted than we suppose. And we ourselves are, too.
-Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov.

Current Meds: Lyrica 75mg, lithium 600mg daily, Maxalt 10mg PRN, clonazepam 1mg PRN, Reclipsen .15/.03 (OCP)
+ Fish Oil (800mg EPA 400mg DHA),Magnesium Oxide 750mg, Vitamin D3 2000 IU

Ex-Meds:
ADs: Paxil, Zoloft, Effexor, Lexapro, Wellbutrin, Cymbalta, Celexa, amitriptyline, lofepramine (mostly awesome--wish it were in the US), Prozac, Nortryptyline
Benzos: Klonopin, Ativan, Tranxene
AAPs: Abilify
ACs: Lamictal, Neurontin (great for anxiety), Topamax (3 days)
Triptans: Zomig, Imitrex, Treximet
Others: Midrin, Nadolol, Propanolol, Clonidine, Strattera


#14 Rockie

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 01:00 AM


You say that you felt happy and carefree on klonopin. That's how it started out for me, too. After a few weeks though, your body adjusts and while the anxiety may still be as manageable as it was before, the happy, nice feelings are gone and that feels like the klon isn't "working" as well anymore. It's easier to handle anxiety when you're feeling happy like that, but that's a bonus that doesn't seem to last with longer use of benzos. Sometimes that's where coping skills need to come in to supplement the medication.

Gabapentin worked well for me for managing anxiety. Again, the happy, carefree feeling does go away, but it keeps me from flipping out all the time. It might be worth bringing up to your pdoc if you're still looking for options.

I know this is an old post, so hopefully you got things figured out.



I know this is an older post but hopefully you'll see it. Did the Gabapentin work better for you than Klonopin? I switched from Lorazepam to Clonazepam on Sept 23, 2011 and at first it worked well but now I'm so achy and sore all over all the time and even though the anxiety seems better (I feel more even than on lorazepam) it does make me a bit sadder. But its the physical part that bothers me the most. It makes my blood sugar levels rise (I'm pre-diabetic and well managed) and also my blood pressure is a bit higher than it has been in a long time. Just trying to figure out if I should stay on the clonazepam.
Thanks

I think most people around here that take gabapentin for anxiety, take it as a maintenance med. In my case, 600mg qid.

Personally, I've also found it to be somewhat helpful as a rescue med. Taking an extra 300 (on top of my usual dose of 600) pretty much dampens all but the worst anxiety, though it does take longer to kick in (30-45 min and it tastes too nasty to dissolve under your tongue). Taking 900 also makes me feel a little drunk, similar to the feeling you'd get if you've taken a bit too much of a benzo. Here's a study on the use of a single, large dose gabapentin to decrease anxiety in pre-op patients.

Oh, and it also has no real contraindications (other than being hypersensitive to gabapentin itself) so it shouldn't effect your blood sugar and pressure, though the possibility of weight gain may be of concern.

Edited by Rockie, 11 November 2011 - 01:01 AM.

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#15 bergsonisme

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 03:38 AM

(Sorry for the long post, I'm running late for work and didn't have time to edit it down to a length proportional to others' contributions)

Is gabapentin good magic for anxiety? (Honest question). It didn't work for tapering out (not completely, but I'm on 4mg, for Krupa's sake. I was hoping to halve that) Klonopin for me. Not because of anxiety, but because steady Klonopin works as an adjunct stabilizer for me. I can go down to 2mg (which increases my notional "IQ" by about 30%; the cognitive effects of kpins are a drag) and not feel a thing re: anxiety, but spiral out into a short manic episode easily, despite all the other paraphernalia.

Gabapentin was also a last-resort adjunct stabilizer attempt because I really, really, really wanted to avoid lithium. In retrospect, I should have followed my pdoc's hunch and gotten on lithium as soon as my results for epilepsy came out conclusively negative. But they should seriously make a Barbie doll that goes "lithium is scary!", eh? I have a bad feeling about gabapentin and pregablin in general (my closest male friend was on Lyrica recently, emptied his savings account on meds and then gave up on them and ran to lacanian psychoanalysis). The generalization of antiepileptic medications for almost anything is a very odd phenomenon that should have proper etiological explanation by now. We're not just putting people with fish phobias on phenytoin, are we?

Edit: Yes, I could try going for a BP1 dose of lithium to taper out the kpins, around 1.0 mmol/L, but my blood readings fluctuate so wildly, even two weeks apart, and the point was the reduce the cognitive drag of kpin; hard to know what more lithium would give me in exchange.

But I got distracted here. The original point was that I'm on way too much Klonopin because this is where we've had to get to make me well, but now I know that it's not because of anxiety, it's because I have this odd form of bipolar that only stays grounded (on its yearly cycle anyway) on Klonopin past a certain point, even on adjunct anticonvulsants and AAPs (you name it; the only things I haven't been on are the carbamazepines, clozapine, Zyprexa and Abilify).

This is to say, it's too easy to hide behind or be sidetracked by words like "anxiety". Unpack your symptoms. Talk human to your doctor: shivering, fear, heartburn, head like a hole, whatever you actually feel. Don't just go and say "anxiety". In the words of the slightly kooky but ever-so-cool Eliezer Yudkowsky


Replace the symbol with the substance;
replace the signifier with the signified;
replace the property with the membership test;
replace the word with the meaning;
replace the label with the concept;
replace the summary with the details;
replace the proxy question with the real question;
dereference the pointer;
drop into a lower level of organization;
mentally simulate the process instead of naming it;
zoom in on your map.


Edited by syntaxfree, 11 November 2011 - 04:00 AM.

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#16 Mr_West

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 10:54 PM

Yeah, I do need to manage the bipolar better. It's just with the move, I don't have my therapist (who I have seen for almost 7 years) who knew me very well to turn to. And unfortunately, my insurance plan only covers a rather shitty office of psychiatrists, who don't require me to see a therapist. The practice I went to back home required me to. Now I feel like I go into an office and have to prescribe myself medicine. My psychiatrist barely exchanges 5 words with me when I go in. I'm still looking at my options.

Anyway, I only take the Seroquel for a short period (about 2 weeks) to help level me out during my extreme manic episodes (which really only happen about once a year now, if that). I honestly HATE the drug, but it works, so I take it as soon as I feel myself spiraling out of control. However, I don't think I'm having a severe manic episode and if I can avoid taking Seroquel, I'd like to. It makes me a zombie and have less energy than I already have (I have Hypothyroidism which causes constant fatigue).

I have not liked any of the daily meds I've been put on specifically for Bipolar, unfortunately. I'm still open to trying new stuff though.

But the Adderall/Klonopin combination had been working well for me for a while. My old P put me on it back and home and it really seemed to make a difference. I was surprised that a stimulant and a benzo could work so well with managing my bipolar (with, as I'm sure you're aware, usually includes ADD & Anxiety/Panic Disorder). The Klonopin balances out the hard hitting effects Adderall can give you, but the Adderall balances out the sedative-like effects of Klonopin.
I've been more productive and relaxed than I ever remember being. No nasty side effects or anything.

It's just that I think maybe adding another drug or changing a dose would help, I've been under more stress than usual lately (the move has just been a stressor, it wasn't one I wanted to make).

I was just looking for possible natural ways to sort of give the Klonopin a push so I don't feel like I need to take more than 1mg. But like you said, I should talk to my doctor about it. It's just awkward when he doesn't even look me in the eye.

Does anyone else take these meds (or ones like them) and possibly something else for their bipolar/depression/anxiety? It'd be nice to at least have something to suggest to the psych.

Thanks!


This sounds counterintuitive, but if seroquel zonks you out you should probably boost the dose to at least 300mg. Taking two drugs to cancel each others' effects is not ideal and probably bad.

Adderall is good medicine for ADD, but klonopin is a mixed bag for bipolar. Anticonvulsants as a family contains members effective in controlling bipolar symptoms, but it isn't a universal thing across the all of them. Zonegram and ethosuxamide aren't used for bipolar maintenance even though they are strong medicine for the right seizures. Klonopin has some of the most potent anticonvulsant activity around, but you don't see it being used to break people out of status because it lingers in the system for a while and withdrawal from a high dose introduces a seizure risk of its own. Klonopin is great stuff for tissue injuries of the brain as well as big ass seizures in addition to its normal uses as a benzo.

If Klonopin does something good for you therapeutically, you want to keep your dose as steady and even as possible. Using it as your primary mood stabilizers jacking the dose around is something that could mess you up for a while or trigger a mood episode.

Five word medicine is a halmark of doctors juggling as many patients as possible. Insurers and attourney love them.

But you know what? I'm tired of getting crap for trying to get people to think straight.

Klonopin takes a while to "take" usually. Take a normal tablet, break it in two and let it dissolve under your tongue. The membrane will get the substance straight to the bloodstream, and the tranquilizing effect will be quicker and stronger, though much, much shorter-lived. If you want to be a pharm junkie, there's your stepping stone. But don't waste your time with benzos, there are more fun rides to be had.


For the rare chest crushing panic attack it is how I take my ativan with a side of baby aspirin (cover the bases). With Klonopin it is a waste of it's biggest positive attibute: it's staying power. It doesn't make it short lived, but it makes steady state feel like withdrawal. Xanax is another short lived benzo that can break a panic attack, but you do want to swallow it intact because it tastes like statan's hotwings shits. Vomitting is a hell of a way to handle a panic attack.

(Sorry for the long post, I'm running late for work and didn't have time to edit it down to a length proportional to others' contributions)

Is gabapentin good magic for anxiety? (Honest question). It didn't work for tapering out (not completely, but I'm on 4mg, for Krupa's sake. I was hoping to halve that) Klonopin for me. Not because of anxiety, but because steady Klonopin works as an adjunct stabilizer for me. I can go down to 2mg (which increases my notional "IQ" by about 30%; the cognitive effects of kpins are a drag) and not feel a thing re: anxiety, but spiral out into a short manic episode easily, despite all the other paraphernalia.

Gabapentin was also a last-resort adjunct stabilizer attempt because I really, really, really wanted to avoid lithium. In retrospect, I should have followed my pdoc's hunch and gotten on lithium as soon as my results for epilepsy came out conclusively negative. But they should seriously make a Barbie doll that goes "lithium is scary!", eh? I have a bad feeling about gabapentin and pregablin in general (my closest male friend was on Lyrica recently, emptied his savings account on meds and then gave up on them and ran to lacanian psychoanalysis). The generalization of antiepileptic medications for almost anything is a very odd phenomenon that should have proper etiological explanation by now. We're not just putting people with fish phobias on phenytoin, are we?

Edit: Yes, I could try going for a BP1 dose of lithium to taper out the kpins, around 1.0 mmol/L, but my blood readings fluctuate so wildly, even two weeks apart, and the point was the reduce the cognitive drag of kpin; hard to know what more lithium would give me in exchange.

But I got distracted here. The original point was that I'm on way too much Klonopin because this is where we've had to get to make me well, but now I know that it's not because of anxiety, it's because I have this odd form of bipolar that only stays grounded (on its yearly cycle anyway) on Klonopin past a certain point, even on adjunct anticonvulsants and AAPs (you name it; the only things I haven't been on are the carbamazepines, clozapine, Zyprexa and Abilify).

This is to say, it's too easy to hide behind or be sidetracked by words like "anxiety". Unpack your symptoms. Talk human to your doctor: shivering, fear, heartburn, head like a hole, whatever you actually feel. Don't just go and say "anxiety". In the words of the slightly kooky but ever-so-cool Eliezer Yudkowsky



Replace the symbol with the substance;
replace the signifier with the signified;
replace the property with the membership test;
replace the word with the meaning;
replace the label with the concept;
replace the summary with the details;
replace the proxy question with the real question;
dereference the pointer;
drop into a lower level of organization;
mentally simulate the process instead of naming it;
zoom in on your map.


An EEG can only look so deep. It's the nasty stuff deep in the limbic system that clonezapam excels at quieting and smoothing. Clonezapam works globally where a lot of the drugs used are targeted to certain brain regions. Gabapentin and pregabalin work globablly too, but their action is much more subtle. The gabapentin and pregabalin depend on creating a feedback loop in how your brain creates and releases GABA, but they don't bind to the GABA receptor and your body's tendency to homeostatis severely hampers the extent to which they can act. Clonezapam though is an AC-130 binding to GABA and circling to keep the speed up on your GABA action.
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________________________________________________________________________________
Not a medical professional. I have been asked whether I am a magician or scientist. Maybe I am neither, maybe I'm both. Take things I've written more than a year or two ago with more than a couple grains of salt, because people learn. I mean who thinks that when the house cat finally catches that bunny rabbit in the yard the bunny is going to kick the cat's ass, but once you see it you have to reconcile it with your existing view of the world.

CYP 2D6 *10, *39

#17 Rockie

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 03:10 AM

This is to say, it's too easy to hide behind or be sidetracked by words like "anxiety". Unpack your symptoms. Talk human to your doctor: shivering, fear, heartburn, head like a hole, whatever you actually feel. Don't just go and say "anxiety". In the words of the slightly kooky but ever-so-cool Eliezer Yudkowsky

I think most people that experience what could be termed "anxiety" do just what you've described above. I doubt the average person is even familiar with the clinical definition of anxiety. People just don't go into the ER shouting, "I'm having anxiety! Give me a prn benzo!".

I'm a good example. When I had my first panic attack, I had no idea what a panic attack was. I just knew I was going though hell. I didn't go to the ER, but was referred to a therapist by a friend. I described my symptoms, went down a longer checklist of symptoms, and was told that I had a panic attack. I was then referred to a pdoc and went through the usual procedure (e.g. medical and personal history, symptoms I've been experiencing, interview to learn more about me, etc.) and was then diagnosed with panic disorder as well as depression, which I had also known nothing about.

I'm sorry if you're "tired of getting crap for trying to get people to think straight", but I really don't think we're so dimwitted that we're not hearing the points you're trying to convey (especially when you put them in bold). Of course we'd all like to be perfect patients and our doctors be so all-knowing that they can treat us properly on the first go and never need a prn med ever because our maintenance meds are working beautifully and not causing intolerable side effects. But that's just not a realistic expectation.

While your points are well taken and goals to strive for, the fact of the matter is that people have flaws, both doctors and patients, not to mention the fact that medical science has a ways to go before we have a good enough understanding of brain and body to provide straightforward, "clean", and effective treatments for various "disorder" or clusters of symptoms.

In short, we're really not deliberately trying to annoy you. Sometimes we ask and do things for a good reason. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
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#18 dymphna

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 09:19 AM

Deep breath everyone.

Syntax: many people do get it - they just don't necessarily respond to you personally. The people who don't aren't going to understand what the hell you're saying anyway, so just take a step back.

Rockie: surprisingly, most people wandering through here do think "I have anxiety" (or whatever) rather than taking the careful approach that you did. The overwhelming presence of the media (television, internet, magazines) is a powerful influence in regards to convincing people that every little twitch is something pathological. They have to: it is the way money is made.

This thread has completely derailed.


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Yes, my name really is Dymphna.

 

I'm not a doctor, nurse, pharmacist, or therapist.

I can find you an answer and I won't blow smoke up your ass.

 

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I'm the Enforcer.

 

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#19 KarenRB53

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 11:27 AM

One more question please.....Clonazepam works well for me during the day...it helps great with they physical sides of anxiety and overall just keeps me calmer and less anxious. However, It does nothing for me at night as far as helping me get to sleep or keeping me asleep. Does not act in a sedative way for me at all. My question is...can I take Clonazepam during the day and take an Ativan (lorazpem) at night for sleeping. I have not had a full nights sleep since I started Clonazepam on Sept.23, 2011.
Thanks for any suggestions.

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#20 Halberd of Hope

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 11:58 AM

How much klon are you taking during the day? If your pdoc is fine with it, and you're not taking a large amount of klonopin, I would (in my unprofessional opinion) say it's fine, as long as you're not taking them both at the same time or too close together. But what does your pdoc say about your sleep difficulties? There might be something else you can do.
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#21 bergsonisme

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 12:46 PM

Karen: a simpler alternative would be taking a higher dose of Klonopin at night, enough to knock you out and still have calming doses in your body during the day.
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#22 KarenRB53

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 04:49 PM

How much klon are you taking during the day? If your pdoc is fine with it, and you're not taking a large amount of klonopin, I would (in my unprofessional opinion) say it's fine, as long as you're not taking them both at the same time or too close together. But what does your pdoc say about your sleep difficulties? There might be something else you can do.


I take 0.5 klonopin in the morning and 0.5 at night. I'm fine all day like I said, but the klonopin does nothing for me at night. I did talk to my pdoc and he said up the dose at night and take 2 pills instead of one...which I did and it didn't make any difference. I seem to get about 3 hrs of sleep and then the rest of the night I'm tossing and turning and getting up several times with bits of sleep. I've never had a problem with sleeping a good 8 hrs a night.
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#23 KarenRB53

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Posted 17 November 2011 - 04:54 PM

Karen: a simpler alternative would be taking a higher dose of Klonopin at night, enough to knock you out and still have calming doses in your body during the day.


I did talk to my pdoc and upped the dosage at night to 2 pills (each one is 0.5 mg) and it made no difference. When I was taking Lorazepam I took 1mg at night and slept a full 8hrs .
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#24 KarenRB53

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 03:44 PM

Sorry to go on about this again....I need help and my pdoc is no help.

Bad day today....heavy chest, can't seem to get enough air, lightheaded and a bit unbalanced. Started taking 1mg Lorazepam at night 3 nights ago and 0.25 mg Clonazepam during the day. Yesterday had a bit of a "spell" in the afternoon but today feel lousy all day. Could someone please advise me on whether this is because of the Clonazepam (lowering dose too fast) or adding the Lorazepam ??
Thanks
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#25 bergsonisme

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 05:56 PM

Yikes. What an asshole I've been on this recently-revived thread. I'd delete everything I said had it not already been quoted and replied to.

I don't know WTF was with me those days. Please accept my apologies.
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#26 notfred

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 08:01 PM

Sounds like a panic attack.


nf
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All doses are a daily total.


#27 KarenRB53

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 06:59 AM

Sounds like a panic attack.


nf




Probably was...like I said I've been messing around with the benzodiazepines and I'm probably not getting enough medication.
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#28 malfeasance

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 11:11 PM

It's been a couple of months since the last post, but I found that Lorazepam causes a heavy chest and not enough air when it's rebounding. I may have been taking too small of amounts. Of course, I have those problems anyway which is why I'm taking something, but the Lorazepam has a particular style of these for me that make it obvious what it is, and it goes away when I take another one. Switched to Diazapam and that cured it - longer lasting.
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